Potentially bad news - ADV in trouble?

[ElricJC]

Hey guys, I just found this article today

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2008-01-25

This isn't a Geneon tank-job in the strictest sense, but it looks like ADV is really cutting back - no more Newtype USA, Anime Network looks like it will die, and even the DVD market is tenuous at best - it's being kept alive, but seems like barely from what the article reads.  I really don't know what to make of this, but it doesn't seem good any which way you slice it 

[Necrominion]

Well thats a bugger, even less anime in British retailers....looks like its an internet job from now on.

[Foggle]

Fansubs are probably what did this.  I'm not talking about unlicensed stuff like Higurashi or (then) Lucky Star, I'm talking about people who downloaded fansubs for ADV's shows, like Excel Saga, Elfen Lied, or Full Metal Panic.  Nabeshin himself has said that it hurts the industry, and this, along with Geneon's collapse, is possibly a result.

[Dr. Iwata]

Even fansubs of non licensed material have probably done it's fair share of damage in the long run.

A lot of fansubs have been licenced eventualy and most of the time a lot of the people who watched them online or downloaded them whine and cry and wheel out the usual I can't afford the DVD's or the classic my mom won't let me order online sob storys.

The other favorite is complaining about the English dub even though the vast majority of Anime releases these days come with the option of the original Japanese VO with English subs (and English dubbing is a lot better overall now then it used to be anyway) but then people complain that the subs are not as good as the fansubs.

Sadly in my experience a lot of the people who watch Anime online are simply to tight to actually buy the DVD's after they have been licensed.

Another excuse being used by some for long running shows such as Bleach and Naruto for example is well the show is so far ahead we may as well continue fansubbing it.

I don't have much sympathy left for the UK, US etc. Anime community anymore.

Ebay bootlegs are also a big problem imo.

[Uncreativity]

WARNING: UNPOPULAR OPINION

While I agree that fansubs are definitely bad for the industry, am I a terrible person that I think the industry needs to learn to cope? Look at the RIAA; has their suing people for copying things they legally bought or laying huge fines on 12-year-olds stopped anyone from downloading illegal music? Anyone?

But when you have a company that iTunes that takes advantage of the technology to offer such downloads for money, and they MAKE that money. Radiohead put up one of their CDs for download allowing people to pay exactly as much as they wanted. They conducted a survey of people who bought it later - a third of the people didn't pay, the average price was £4 ($8). That means the majority of people paid more than $8.

You can't fight with anime fans. They WILL be fansubbing and they WILL be downloading. Some of us do buy the DVDs; I do (though I guess I tend to wait until I can buy it used, which doesn't particularly benefit the original manufacturer), but I won't buy a DVD of an anime I haven't seen fansubbed first (or read the manga). Likewise, I won't buy a manga that I haven't read scanlated first (or watched the anime). I'm an adult, I work, and I have enough expendable income to spend on these things, but not enough to waste on shows that may well suck, especially now that the availability of anime has gone from underwhelming to oversatuated.

There are a lot of factors working against anime on DVD. Compared to the boxset of an American show, you get less content for more money. You have to wait months for something that all your friends have already watched. The dubs may be getting better, but on the whole they still suck. This is not an amazing product that people buy because it's amazing; this is a product that good-hearted fans buy because they want to support the industry. A pity buy, if you will.

Might I add that when it comes to American shows, the market has already had the opportunity to see the show for free? I know it's not exactly the same thing because money is still being made from TV and webisodes, but people still buy box sets!

I do think that people who buy eBay bootlegs are just sad. And a little dumb.

And you know, it's not that nerds don't have money. Nerds have lots and lots of money we are willing to waste on dumb, dumb things. We will blow exorbitant amounts of cash on merchandise, and that's something that can't be effectively bootlegged; George Lucas has sure as hell figured this out, and I guess to an extent the anime companies have as well, but go to a con someday and watch people plop down $50 on an imported 6" statuette or something. It's not even an action figure, guys! There is no kung fu grip! But if it's a series I like, I'd buy one too!

Once again, fansubbers do take a chunk out of the industry, but a business that can't take advantage of a thriving market is a failure as a business. That's just the way capitalism works.

[exckilla]

So what does this me for me or any other UK anime buyer, does this now mean that anime series that they started to release in the UK are now not going to be all released.

[Dr. Iwata]

I do think that people who buy eBay bootlegs are just sad. And a little dumb.

If anything I wouldn't be suprised if the bootleg business is doing more damage then the fansubs, jusr go on ebay to see the sheer amount of obvious bootlegs.

Though I don't really see a problem with out of print Title's such as Sailor Moon getting the bootleg treatment especially considering the final season (Stars) was never licencsed as far as I know.

Just check out the price for a used R1 set of the first season of Sailor Moon here on amazon and the price of a new set is even higher.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sailor-Moon-Season-REGION-NTSC/dp/B000093NPZ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1201464667&sr=8-1

For those in the US the used set comes to over $600 and the new set close to the $900 mark if not more.

No Anime is worth that price imho.

[HA1L ILPALLAZZO]

ok I was holding off but I'm goin to have a rant now

the main problem ADV isn't doing well is a) Bad advertisement and choices and b) fansubbing

ADV might release a Trailer for an anime series but these can only be seen on the internet and on other DVDs you purchased. if anime was advertised a bit more then more people might take notice and the industry might not die. as I say this there is only one anime channel on british television, anime central (channel 199 sky don't know for the other networks), which only shows anime not lisenced to ADV (Bleach, Ghost in the Shell SAC, Cowboy Bebop) they show a certain number of shows so you have repeats (so if you missed one you can see it later), only adverts for anime are on the Channel (no health insurance crap) and it's shown between 9 in the evening to 6 in the morning (might not sound good but after drinking then coming home at 3 am I get to watch some anime before goin to bed  ). it might not sound like a big deal but it's other anime distributers grouping together to run a channel between themselves so theres no monopoly on the channel like anime network and also they all share in the cost of running the channel. ADV rather then starting a channel which is run for 2 hours over here could instead give a license over to anime central and get their stuff shown.

on the case of fansubbing I to be honest do watch fansubs ~BUT~ only as a way to see if I like the anime. I have never bought an anime without at least seeing either the trailer or one episode (with one exception ~ I bought School Rumble after borrowing the Manga from the Library) but I am against fansubbing if your just goin to go and watch the whole series then say it was good but I have watched it so I won't watch it again. thats like eating a strawberry ice cream and going you know what it was good but I have some at home so I wont pay you. the people in the industry work really hard dubbing the episodes or subbing the series and then people start going "but it's expensive" or "the subbing is wrong" or "the dubbing is crap" then say "the fansub is better" thats a lad of bull if you ask me

well thanx for reading my rant

[Uncreativity]

I do think that people who buy eBay bootlegs are just sad. And a little dumb.

If anything I wouldn't be suprised if the bootleg business is doing more damage then the fansubs, jusr go on ebay to see the sheer amount of obvious bootlegs.

Though I don't really see a problem with out of print Title's such as Sailor Moon getting the bootleg treatment especially considering the final season (Stars) was never licencsed as far as I know.

Just check out the price for a used R1 set of the first season of Sailor Moon here on amazon and the price of a new set is even higher.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sailor-Moon-Season-REGION-NTSC/dp/B000093NPZ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=gateway&qid=1201464667&sr=8-1

For those in the US the used set comes to over $600 and the new set close to the $900 mark if not more.

No Anime is worth that price imho.

I actually don't know a lot about bootlegging... it seems like a waste of money to me. Hong Kong subs are full of hilarity, yeah, but they're also full of terrible.

I always hear that DVDs are a lot more expensive in Japan than they are... well, everywhere else. I wonder how that affects their DVD industry.

ok I was holding off but I'm goin to have a rant now
ADV might release a Trailer for an anime series but these can only be seen on the internet and on other DVDs you purchased. if anime was advertised a bit more then more people might take notice and the industry might not die. as I say this there is only one anime channel on british television, anime central (channel 199 sky don't know for the other networks), which only shows anime not lisenced to ADV (Bleach, Ghost in the Shell SAC, Cowboy Bebop) they show a certain number of shows so you have repeats (so if you missed one you can see it later), only adverts for anime are on the Channel (no health insurance crap) and it's shown between 9 in the evening to 6 in the morning (might not sound good but after drinking then coming home at 3 am I get to watch some anime before goin to bed  ). it might not sound like a big deal but it's other anime distributers grouping together to run a channel between themselves so theres no monopoly on the channel like anime network and also they all share in the cost of running the channel. ADV rather then starting a channel which is run for 2 hours over here could instead give a license over to anime central and get their stuff shown.

Do you know what else would be cool? Maybe this is just a dumb dream, but I'd really love an anime channel that shows things SUBTITLED, in a TIMELY FASHION, as soon as the air date in Japan as possible. It could be dubbed and sold in DVD form later, but it would encourage fans to watch it on cable (which could then gain revenue via advertising) rather than download the same series. I may be alone in this, but I hate watching things on my computer! And it takes FOUR HOURS for me to burn a DVD. I would watch all my anime on TV if I could, but I can't, because the availability is too small and also I hate dubs.

(I bet being a voice actor is a really fabulous and enjoyable job, I know everyone works hard even though they're not real actors, and I'm sure they're good people that I would most certainly enjoy having a beer with... but with very few exceptions, I hate dubs. I'm sorry.)

[Squeezit]

i agree with uncreativity.
personally there are a couple bands that i respect that allow you to download ALL their music for free, however they have a "tip jar"
a part on their website (whereas you can download for free)
where they ask that you pay what you think is fair for their music. Granted most people dont pay. But isnt' it a hell of a lot better than ripping people off by charging them 20$ for a piece of plastic with sound?
CD's should be about 5$ each. Hell i download most of my music, i only buy the CD's from my favorite bands (such as Dream Theater and Cradle of Filth and several others) Personally when its my favorite band i want to own the CD. but for a band like the offspring, its something i'll download, and listen to rarely.

Should i ever get good enough with my music i will do the same thing.
This is just my opinion, but i think anime should do something similar. or atleast not charge us 30$ for 4 fucking episodes of any anime. Not worth paying 400$ to own the entire collection of rurouni kenshin. 

Just my personal thought <_<

[ElricJC]

All very valid opinions, especially when it comes to marketing and advertising - I don't see ads for anime anywhere except on other anime DVDs - we don't get Anime Network around here, or anything quite like it.  The only exception is the few shows that Adult Swim and the Sci-Fi Channel show, and since they're always dubs (and usually horrid) I don't watch them.

And just like HA1l, I watch fansubs to sample the series, but often times I will watch the whole thing and as soon as it is licensed, it's on my shelf.  I

like

actually owning the series because you can just pop the disc in any time.  I found Haruhi this way, and just today I got Vol. 3 in the mail.  Much of ADVs woes have been caused by ADV, but just looking at my shelf about 60% of my collection is ADV in origin, I just hope they don't fold. 

[Squirrellord]

I used to be in a fansubbing group (Toriyama's World, the brief run with Death Note), and I agree that fansubs, as a whole, do hurt the industry. However, it's the price of the series which cause the most damage.

Here in the states, we get to watch TV shows for free (well, as in, we pay for cable, but we don't have to pay per show), and with Tivo and DVR, we can tape stuff and watch it at any given time. But the DVD sales for these US shows don't suffer, and fans of the shows still gobble them up like mad, despite also being able to stream them off the net. Most likely because boxsets are 30-50 dollars a box, not 100+ like on some anime titles, yet still contain roughly 24 episodes. We don't get shiny trinkets, but that really doesn't matter, does it?

My point is, if they had a way for people to watch anime in a much simpler fashion (Viz had a great idea, with the Death Note subs available for download, but making us pay for it was wrong), such as a channel running relatively recent series with subs, then released the shows BY SEASON at a reduced price, then people would buy.

I bought Excel Saga, Samurai X OVAs, Full Metal Panic,  and Neon Genesis Evangelion boxsets before, the laster  being thin packs with no extras. Excel Saga  was near 90 at the time, and Samurai X was 75, neither of which came with extras. Full Metal was 75, while Neon Genesis was 50, on sale at Bestbuy. Either way, in each case, I only got 24-26 episodes per series (6 with Samurai X), with no extras, and spent time and a half or double the cost for an american sitcom season, which could run for another 9 seasons. I'm the proud owner of the first 5 seasons of Scrubs on DVD, each one of those setting me back 30-40, but not complaining about those in the least, despite having watched them all previously on the TV.

With better marketing, more dedicated channels, faster releases, and slightly reduced prices, the dubbed series would flourish, despite the constant downloadings and fansubs.

[E^D Crow]

Y'know, I just signed up for The Animé Network a few months ago, and It would be a shame to lose it.  I have discovered many interesting shows that I would have not otherwise have even thought of.

Even still, there are many that I enjoy watching, but would probably not spend the money to actually buy (while there are others that I will buy, being I enjoyed them so much).

Much of what I own has that little ADV logo, and there has been talk of an animé "bubble burst"...I don't know...I just buy what I like.

I don't download, and prefer to buy them.

E^D

[HA1L ILPALLAZZO]

ok I was holding off but I'm goin to have a rant now
ADV might release a Trailer for an anime series but these can only be seen on the internet and on other DVDs you purchased. if anime was advertised a bit more then more people might take notice and the industry might not die. as I say this there is only one anime channel on british television, anime central (channel 199 sky don't know for the other networks), which only shows anime not lisenced to ADV (Bleach, Ghost in the Shell SAC, Cowboy Bebop) they show a certain number of shows so you have repeats (so if you missed one you can see it later), only adverts for anime are on the Channel (no health insurance crap) and it's shown between 9 in the evening to 6 in the morning (might not sound good but after drinking then coming home at 3 am I get to watch some anime before goin to bed  ). it might not sound like a big deal but it's other anime distributers grouping together to run a channel between themselves so theres no monopoly on the channel like anime network and also they all share in the cost of running the channel. ADV rather then starting a channel which is run for 2 hours over here could instead give a license over to anime central and get their stuff shown.

Do you know what else would be cool? Maybe this is just a dumb dream, but I'd really love an anime channel that shows things SUBTITLED, in a TIMELY FASHION, as soon as the air date in Japan as possible. It could be dubbed and sold in DVD form later, but it would encourage fans to watch it on cable (which could then gain revenue via advertising) rather than download the same series. I may be alone in this, but I hate watching things on my computer! And it takes FOUR HOURS for me to burn a DVD. I would watch all my anime on TV if I could, but I can't, because the availability is too small and also I hate dubs.

(I bet being a voice actor is a really fabulous and enjoyable job, I know everyone works hard even though they're not real actors, and I'm sure they're good people that I would most certainly enjoy having a beer with... but with very few exceptions, I hate dubs. I'm sorry.)

Thats a good idea actually. I understand that most anime fans hate dub (I like dub but when you watch an anime where characters screech half the time urrgh!) so either cast anime in the first run as dub and then later on subbed (you show 4 anime dubbed then the 4 again subbed) or run two channels showing the same thing but one is subbed and one is dubbed

as for pricng it really is a hit and miss affair there. whereas prople in the US are paying huge amounts for anime here in the UK I can go into somewhere like Zavvi and HMV and come out with an anime for £5 O_O now me and my friend have been discussing why anime which is expensive in america is cheap in England and we have come up with a simple reason, the anime market in the UK is very small. In America you have a thriving network of anime and manga and a large anime community has popped up over there (most members here can proove that) whereas in the UK with lack of anime on TV there isn't much of an out cry (sure there are anime communities but they are small) therefore the shops in america think $$$$KACHING$$$ when it comes to anime, over here it's more like "well we might as well supply it just in case and to make sure they buy it it'll have to be low priced"

[ElricJC]

as for pricng it really is a hit and miss affair there. whereas prople in the US are paying huge amounts for anime here in the UK I can go into somewhere like Zavvi and HMV and come out with an anime for £5 O_O now me and my friend have been discussing why anime which is expensive in america is cheap in England and we have come up with a simple reason, the anime market in the UK is very small. In America you have a thriving network of anime and manga and a large anime community has popped up over there (most members here can proove that) whereas in the UK with lack of anime on TV there isn't much of an out cry (sure there are anime communities but they are small) therefore the shops in america think $$$$KACHING$$$ when it comes to anime, over here it's more like "well we might as well supply it just in case and to make sure they buy it it'll have to be low priced"

I'm jealous, but that does make sense.  It can be boiled down to this:

Supply and Demand. 

Still though, I don't get why it is THIS expensive, and even though America has more anime fans than anywhere, it's largely by virtue of us having a much larger population than Japan, or the UK, or any nation in Europe, but it still remains a fringe hobby.  I thought I saw some stats, may have been on here or another board in the past year or so, that estimated that there are about 500,000 Americans who identify themselves as dedicated fans of anime/manga, but that is still only 0.17% of the national population, and there might be another .83% who might be considered casual fans, but as it has been mentioned standard TV shows like Stargate SG-1, which I am certain cost more to produce (yes, making anime is expensive, but is it moreso than live action sci-fi with good special effects?) but whose seasons sell for between $30-50, and those are individually hour length episodes in the case of SG-1. 

It still seems anime is too expensive for what it is - a fairly small hobby.  Honestly if these anime companies would advertise in the mainstream more, they could bring in more customers and could even decrease the per-unit cost.  I'll tell ya, if they sold new volumes with more episodes to justify the cost then I would buy more.  But I think it's just the combination of a limited market, and they sell for precisely what it takes to keep running.  Honestly the lack of proper advertising is just like shooting themselves in the foot - most people when they think "anime" still imagine the horrid cartoons they saw on 4Kids and the Fox Box.